An email question I got this week.

[Mammamel]

Hi, Mel. :-)

Question for you about abusive husband situation. No, it's not us, it's someone whose blog I read, she has fled her husband and is living in a shelter with her children, awaiting legal proceedings. Says her husband is physically, emotionally, and sexually abusive, but the odds are stacked against her because she has no paper trail.

What is the Biblical answer, just for my own curiosity. Is it wrong of me that I don't quite believe the story she tells? Is it wrong of me to think some of the blame is on her? (I would never say that to her, I'm praying for her daily, I'm just curious for my own self.) Of course, I'm not there, and don't know what happened behind closed doors. It's just that when I hear of abusive situations, I always wonder, if the wife did a better job would it have made a difference? Would abusive husbands behave better if wives tried harder? Of course, there are crazies out there where it wouldn't matter, but in most situations, wouldn't it help if the wife would change to make the home peaceful for the children and husband, so the children can grow up in an intact home? I really don't know the answer, that's why I'm asking you. Please don't be angry with me if I'm thinking about this all wrong.

These are just questions I ponder; I really hope I don't offend you with my thought process.

What are your thoughts?


Wow. Well I did pray for God to show me what He wanted me to share and study on next…


After emailing back and forth on this I decided to ask if I could blog on it, that way I can combine my thoughts in one place and not have them all jumbly in my emails.

So here are my thoughts.

No honey you are not offending me with your questions. I am glad the family you speak of is not you.


Now here is my thing, I am a Bible literal person. According to my friend, a pastor's wife, the religions (main stream ones) now days allow divorce for 3 reasons, abuse, abandonment and adultery. However only one of these is "legal" in God's word.

Sounds harsh doesn't it? The Bible says God allows a spouse an out if their mate is unfaithful. Nothing else. Now we can leave, but we can not divorce. The only exception I can find is, if an unsaved spouse leaves a Christian, the Christian is free in that case. God's law of grace does not apply to the unsaved. (Because they have not accepted His Son and the Gift that goes with it)

First off, sexual abuse from a spouse is not a biblical idea. All things are ok in the marriage bed. Some things may not be pleasant but God does not list "do nots" for the married couples. Not that I have found anyway.

Emotional abuse I do not believe in. Basically that is one person letting another out rank God. Focusing on God would cut that out. Letting God give us our worth, means no man can take it from us. I grew up in a house where that was the norm, and it took me years to realize that for my part, I was putting their say so above God’s. So I had a hand in my own issues.

Physical abuse is one I would leave over. Me personally. It is NOT biblically a reason for divorce, but I am a hard nose, and that is one place I would be disobedient. I would however never be able to remarry, because God says if you leave your spouse for a reason other than adultery, you can not remarry. (Please note this advice is aimed at a Christian woman. God’s law does not apply to the unsaved, until they accept Christ and become saved, at that point EVERYTHING in their past is wiped out and gone, including any past marriages)

To answer you, yes if wives worked to meet their husband’s needs, abuse would be less. I know there are some really bad sons of satan out there so it would still happen. However when we as women marry we are to put our husbands first. God tells us to treat them as Sarah treated Abraham, calling him lord and such. That means she doted on him, she nearly worshiped the ground he walked on and did all in her power to please him. Where women go wrong is, they expect the man is going to return that devotion. Men are not given those orders, women are. If a woman does it right, the man will return that devotion if he is a normal godly man. If he is a son of satan he will not. However even the unsaved husbands God tells us can be won, by the attitude and demeanor of the saved wife. However, just because he does not, is no reason a wife can claim abuse and leave.


Our job as Titus 2 women is to teach women how to LOVE their husbands. This tells me love is not an emotion. It is nothing you fall into or out of. Love is a learned behavior, and something we are told to do to our husbands. When we begin not to, we are at fault. True, it is not always easy, it is however what God commands us to do.

Please forget the doormat argument. We are to treat our husbands as we would Christ. The Bible tells us to treat him this way. Does it make us a door mat? Nope it doesn’t. It makes us true followers of God’s plan for women. Do we have a right to tell our spouse how we feel? Yes. Do we have a right to push our point home? No. That is called nagging, and goes AGAINST the meek and quiet spirit and the calm quiet demeanor God calls us to have.


Many ladies have left PH over this teaching. That is fine, this is Bible, anything else is opinion and opinion is NOT Bible. Modern ideas where the wife deserves her career ahead of her husband and children, is not Bible. Any time a woman puts I, me and my over her family, she is wrong. My wants, my needs, I want, I need, what about me, are all statements we ought not to use more than once in any situation. More than once is nagging, and Proverbs is pretty descriptive of what nagging does. It may be OT but it still has the same effect today.



God tells wives to bend to the husbands, not the other way around. Just as we are to bend to follow God’s word, not bend His word to fit our lives. (Please note, we are only to bend to our husband, not any other man)

Bible Verses for this can be found in almost the entire New Testament. Here are some to get you started.
Mat. 5 (Christ’s teaching on divorce)
Mat. 19 (Jesus again)
Mark 10 (Jesus)
Luke 16 (Jesus)
1 Corinthians 7
1 Timothy 2
Titus 2
1 Peter 3

Those should do to explain why I feel the way I do in these matters.

Does this answer your questions? If not let me know what else you wish to know and I will do my best to answer you.

[leahsgarden]

I would however never be able to remarry, because God says if you leave your spouse for a reason other than adultery, you can not remarry.

Question here. :cheeky-smiley-025: If your spouse does cheat on you during some time of the marriage, you try to make it work out... but you leave for other reasons, could you still play the "Get out of marriage free for adultery" card? Could you say that adultery started the problem?

[grace]

Leah:

Good question. I think the thing is that there someone would just be lying to themselves, don't you think? They are just trying to justify their un-biblical behavior. At least, that's my take on it.

Grace

[Dannielle]

What are your thoughts when the abuse (physical, sexual, emotional) is directed toward the children rather than or in addition to the wife. Is that, in your opinion, different than when it's only directed toward the wife?

For me this is a big gray area. I have a hard time drawing that line between a woman's responsibilities as a wife and those as a mother.

And, no, this doesn't apply to me as an adult. I did grow up in an abusive household (no sexual abuse though) and I can't say I don't harbor resentment toward my mother for tolerating it.

[Mammamel]

Leah, once we forgive a person we can not hold that sin against them still. So no the old adultery card would not work as permission to leave once forgiven.

Danielle, sexual abuse of a child is adultery, in its most twisted form.

Physical abuse, one must determine if it is in fact abuse or discipline. Spanking the keister, is discipline, breaking the arm is abuse.

Emotional abuse of a child is harder to define. A child is not yet able to accept what God says they are as opposed to what the parent (or in my case guardian) says they are.
As a mother, i would do what i could to shield the child from all forms of abuse. Even if it meant leaving and living alone the rest of my days.

[ruthieredneck]

As a Christian I try my hardest to follow God's commands and the commandments as well as the law. I fail every single day in my life. Now, is that failure something small...lie, cheat, harbor ill thoughts or is it something larger...adultry, divorce, killing? They are all sin. None are right. Sin is sin.

It is without a doubt that when I go to God and ask for forgiveness that he will forgive me. I feel it is the same for others as well. I am not saying to do things against His commands, but rather if it should happen that the communication is between the person who has gone against His will and God. The prayers for forgiveness are the same.

I feel very much like communicating here such as this causes strive and anxiety between sisters. No one here knows the background of those in our community. No one here knows just how "abusive" the abusive husband is. No one here is allowed to judge others.

I have a hard time subjecting a sister in Christ to continual abuse in the name of following God's law. I also have a hard time saying that if she were to be more of a Godly wife that it wouldn't be as severe or that the abuse would stop. That is NOT the case in many abusive situations.

I thank God every day that I have never been in an abusive relationship in any manner whether growing up, dating or marriage. I have friends who have.

I agree with what the Bible says. I agree that divorcing is against what is in the Bible. I also believe in the ultimate gift of salvation and forgiveness.



I am thankful to be here. Mel, I respectfully disagree.

[leahsgarden]

Leah, once we forgive a person we can not hold that sin against them still. So no the old adultery card would not work as permission to leave once forgiven.


Makes perfect sense, and I agree. Thanks Mel. :)

[ThursdaysChild]

Unfaithfulness can take different forms. If someone is abusing his wife (usually NOT because she's not good enough-that's just the husband's excuse), he's being unfaithful her. He's broken his vows (if they used the traditional ones). Husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. If he's abusing her, he's sinning. He's being unfaithful.

Also, if he's addicted to alcohol, drugs, etc. he's loving them over her. He's being unfaithful to her.

Unfaithful can encompass much more than adultery.

Just my 100 fils.

[Mammamel]

Ladies it is fine to disagree with me. I did not say an abused spouse could not leave, we have a PHer that did just that. What God says is they may not divorce. If they do divorce (I would) they may not remarry, if they are a Christian at the time of the divorce.

God uses adultery to be sexual sin, It is lusting after and or taking another woman. Nothing else counts as adultery.

That is God and what He says. Not my opinion or my idea.

I personally would feel badly for a woman who left her husband for unjust cause and she wanted to remarry. Were it up to me there would be a host of reasons to leave a spouse. God gives 1.

Who do I follow? My feelings or God's commands? Who do I suggest people follow? Opinion that may cost them salvation, or God's commands?

Yes God is faithful to forgive us, when we repent. If we repent, we go and do not continue in the sin. Jesus says that anyone who marries a woman who is divorced (keep in mind I am not a teacher for men, what God tells them is not my business to teach) who has left their spouse for ANY reason but Adultery, not unfaithfulness, adultery, she is an adulteress, and the one who marries her is in adultery also. I will not argue with Christ.

[Calico Prairie]

I'm pretty much Bible-literal as well. The Bible is our guidebook for living, and unfortunately, it doesn't give us specific instruction for every single circumstance in our lives. I believe this is for a reason, though--because we are supposed to learn how to turn to the Lord and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in our tough situations.

I believe that God has His specific rules for marriage/divorce/remarriage for a reason. We can see the aftermath of divorce all over the place. I would venture to say that even doing something as simple as making a family tree would be a challenge for most, let alone trying to figure out who and who not to invite to the kids' birthday party, trying to get alimony or child support, figuring out who will have the kids and when, etc. The reality is that sometimes people think divorce will be their freedom, when in actuality, it will only compound their problems.

Having said all that, I have to admit that I have a really hard time with counseling a woman who is pondering divorce because the instruction is SO clear cut that it makes the woman feel like there is just no hope for her situation. That's tough. The only thing I know how to go back to is the Bible, and try to counsel these sweet ladies to change themselves.

Now in the case of abuse, I believe that first a woman needs to get her and her children away from the abuser for safety's sake. Then I counsel her to be in steadfast prayer for what to do next. I honestly don't know what she should do, and I wouldn't want to tell her that she has to continue to be beaten on for the rest of her life--however, I definitely don't want to encourage a divorce. That decision is between her and God. I do tend to believe that we wives could do a way better job at respecting their husbands, however, I'm not sure whether that would make or break a husband's abusive behavior. If he is an abuser, then it's likely that he learned to be that way before he ever got married.

If a woman divorces, will God forgive her? Yep. Even if she remarries? That would depend on whether God considers that person an adulteress. If so, would they then not inherit the kingdom of heaven? See what I mean about compounding problems?

God has his rules for a reason, and I believe it's because He wants to spare us the kind of problems that our choices tend to manifest over time.

[gina kay]

Mel, I'm intersted in this topic because I have been through this situation. I was married to someone I met through church. He wanted to be a missionary and a few years after married he quit going to church and he enlisted in the Army. He started hitting on me and not allowing me to go to the store when he was home because he didn't want to watch the children. He told me what groceries I could buy and said the kids had to eat Ramen noodles. I was very submissive (more out of fear than for biblical reasons) yet he would start an argument and slam me against the wall, choked me, then leave for the night. He admitted himself for alcohol treatment but kept the controlling behavior and the last straw was when he came home in the middle of the night and made me sit on the floor by the couch until he fell asleep on the couch, screamed at me and I realized 7 yr dd was awake listening to it all. He admitted to having multiple affairs so I know scripturally I had reason for divorcing him. What I want to know is was it ok to remarry? Both of us had strayed from God in our previous relationships (dh wasn't married...but dating an Agnostic) but since we married we are both reading the Bible together, active in church and have put God first in our lives so I really believe we were put together for a reason. But I had to go through the abusive marriage first.

[gina kay]

After re-reading what I wrote it might've looked like I'm against the husband being in control of the household but I meant when his wants are above the families. When I said ex wanted the kids to eat only ramen noodles he said it was so he could have more money for alcohol. Also he controlled dd by spanking her for having a coughing fit (when she was crying) which was a cough-variant asthma attack. He said he started the fights so he'd have a reason to go out drinking...he felt less guilty for going out if he fought to the point where I wanted him to go out so the fight would end. WHat I'm really want to know, by going into this much detail, is was I wrong for the divorce and will God forgive me? I also want others to see that women can't always avoid abuse by being the proper wife. Some men don't know how to be a husband if they didn't have a father figure.

[sweetcaroline]

I understand the wife and husband have different rules of behavior, but the automatic blaming of the wife is really misplaced. The argument that a woman should be able to fix a broken marriage by changing her behavior...seems to be manpulative in a strange way. Or that she is in control of how the dh's behave....I personally am in the mindset that God judges us on our own actions. I am only responsible for the decisions I make and how those decisions effected those around me...however...no matter how I behave I am not responsible for my dh's behavior because he is a able minded adult.

[Mammamel]

Gina,
Honey the problem was your husbands. You did your job, you were Sarah, he was satan.

Yes you have biblical right to remarry. He committed adultery and not because you did not do as he wished.

Jo, I am not blaming the wife. Well not always. Sometimes the wife IS at fault. Always blaming the husband is also misplaced.

Some marriages can not be saved because one spouse or the other will not change. That is a fact.

It is also a fact that God tells me to teach wives to love their husbands. He does not tell me to train husbands. (Other than my boys who are throughly trained to treat their wives as themselves and care for her as a precious treasure) Titus 2 tells us what we as women are to do.


You are right to say you are only responsible for your own behavior, to a point. God tells us not to cause another to sin, so apparently we do have some control in how others respond to us.


Here is an example from one persons life. I will call her Dilly. Dilly is now on marriage #3.
In her first marriage she married her high school sweet heart. They lived happily together until Dilly "found religion". Once she began going to church she changed. NOT into the loving submissive wife God tells us to be. She changed into a nagging shrew, constantly reminding her husband that she was saved ie better than he was. Husband began to change too, just like a rock changes over time with water dripping down it. He began neglecting the bills, not paying them, after 2 years he began an affair. Dilly had already been looking for an out to the marriage for "irreconcilable differences" and having been told by the church she could not go that route and remarry, she began the abuse line. Claiming his lack of paying bills was abusive. The church did not take that line either. No abuse was taking place, except the verbal abuse she was heaping on her husbands head. Finally he admitted the affair in a manner that seemed he was proud of it. (Maybe relieved knowing she would cut him free?) She, having her out filed for divorce. She wrecked her marriage.

Her second marriage was to the church man who counseled her she could not divorce the first man, because she had no biblical reason. They married 9 months after her first divorce was final. Against the wishes of his children (he was widowed) Dilly ignored their warnings. As it turns out this man is a child molester. Dilly finds this out 2 weeks into the marriage but decides she can help him change. about 20 years later she finds him still steeped in kiddie porn on his computer. This is the last straw and she divorces him. He claims she can not remarry, because shes didn't catch him cheating. The church disagrees, because Christ says to lust after some one is the same as actually taking them. In this case the husband wrecked the marriage. For Dilly's part she could have dug around and found out she ought not to marry this son of satan to begin with.

She is now happily married to her #3.

This is a true story. I was there and watched it happen. No it is not MY story. Beloved and I have always been our only. However, had Dilly followed God's guide for wives, there is a chance she too would be still married to her first husband. She instead chose the "brow beat them into salvation" method, that is just soooooooooooo successful. (sarcasm)

So while yes we answer for our own sins, we do influence others for good or bad, and that is the part we will answer for, our part in what they do.

[sweetcaroline]

Yes Mel I can understand how a wife can wreck a marriage. I've seen it, same as you. I agree "automatic blaming" of either party is misplaced however I have seen the tone of blaming the wife without knowing the facts one time too many. If I cause a person to stumble, then yes I am at fault. But ONLY for the fact that I caused it, and the other person is at fault for thier own decision to stumble if they are able minded. However my point was just the act of being married to a person who stumbles is not the fault of the other....
Like it or not human beings (in general) need someone or something to blame. If we can only say "he said this, she did that" then we feel better about making hard decisions. Or making decisions for selfish reasons.
"Fix yourself first" is very good advice because there is a very good possibility that one spouse is contributing to in whole or in part to the environment at home. However without the whole story its very difficult to judge who is really right or wrong, if we should be doing that at all.

[Zookeeper9]

I have been thinking and praying about a response to this post. I agree with JoAnn, outright blaming a woman for all problems is wrong. I spent years counseling women (and men) who were victim's of domestic violence. The victim usually has his/her own issues. Total submission tends to make the abuser worse over time. The victim needs to get out and get some help. And then decide if the abuser is open to getting help too. Only then can the couple hope to have a chance to stay together.

Divorce is a civil issue. If they cannot live together safely for all people then you need to divorce. As for remarriage, that will be up to your religious beliefs. This where I am glad I am a Catholic. We have a whole process to determine if the marriage was valid from the beginning. If is determined that it was not valid, then the marriage is considered invalid and you are free to remarry. If they rule it was valid, then you are not able to remarry.

The Catholic church is very committed to marriage so "annulments" are not just rubber stamped. There is a long and involved process. This is a good site providing an overview on the subject of Catholic annulments. http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909fea2.asp

[Calico Prairie]

"Fix yourself first" is very good advice because there is a very good possibility that one spouse is contributing to in whole or in part to the environment at home. However without the whole story its very difficult to judge who is really right or wrong, if we should be doing that at all.

Here's the thing, though, Jo. When ladies come to PH and ask for advice, we give them advice based on what they tell us. If they do not give us the whole story--and usually they don't--we give our Biblical advice, pray for the person, having faith that God knows the whole story and that He will work things out, because He is able. That's really all we can do with the information given.

If we were to say to a woman, "I'm sorry, but until we get the WHOLE story, we cannot give you any type of advice, for to do that would be wrong," then we wouldn't be helping anyone here at PH and there would be no reason for it to be here, as it is a Titus 2 ministry by women for women (not their husbands). Personally, I believe that God is way bigger than our ability to assess a situation even with ALL the facts. I believe that He can meet a lady wherever she is at, and can minister to her through many different means, even if those means have no idea what she is going through. I've heard many people say things like, "At church today I felt that the pastor was talking directly to me--like he knew my situation!" It likely wasn't the pastor knowing the situation, but God who knew, and placed that person there to hear what the pastor had to say, because HE knew that would minister to the person.

The reality is that the Lord CAN and HAS changed women's lives here at PH despite the fact that we haven't known the whole story. Our job here is to teach the ladies, to the best of our ability, HOW to be Christian women. Sometimes our efforts are successful, and sometimes they are not. At PH we are not perfect, but we do have hearts for the women who come through needing help, and we do our best to aid them in coming closer to the Lord Jesus, because it is He who sets us free, not us. :)

[Calico Prairie]

I have been thinking and praying about a response to this post. I agree with JoAnn, outright blaming a woman for all problems is wrong.

I completely agree here. I don't really think that this is the intention of the ladies here at PH, though. Perhaps what seems to come across as "blaming the wife for all problems" is the fact that many of us deal only with the woman's problems, and not the man's problems when counseling any given woman?

Divorce is a civil issue. If they cannot live together safely for all people then you need to divorce. As for remarriage, that will be up to your religious beliefs. This where I am glad I am a Catholic. We have a whole process to determine if the marriage was valid from the beginning. If is determined that it was not valid, then the marriage is considered invalid and you are free to remarry. If they rule it was valid, then you are not able to remarry. I'm not trying to argue AT ALL, but I'm wondering, how is the man-made process more effective than what God says in His word? I do agree that abuse is going to have a different set of rules, but it sounds like you are saying that the Catholic church has a way of determining if ANY marriage was valid from the beginning, not just the abusive ones. I'd really like to understand this.

[Mamame]

OK - I think I have few minutes to answer this - IF this thunder storm doesn't get much worse - then I'll post what I have and come back. :)

I don't think that divorce is just a civil issue since God is the one who instituted marriage so it would make sense that divorce is also a God issue.

Mel is correct that the Bible only speaks of divorce in cases of adultery. That doesn't mean adultery HAS to end in divorce but I think most often it does. I have seen marriages be healed after infidelity and I think that is the ideal but not always the reality because of sinful men and women.

To the whole idea of a woman being the "cause" of the infidelity, that would be at times partly right. No matter how much of a shrew she can be, it's still the husband's fault that he strayed because he did not follow God's law in being faithful to his wife. There is NEVER a reason to stray on either part. Ever. Period. That is against God's law. BUT in counseling a woman who's husband has strayed and she asks "what can I do?", we will counsel her to pray, to look at her relationship and see if there's anything that can be done to salvage the marriage and she should do it. Will it stop her husband from straying? No - not necessarily. He might just be an idiot who is looking for his own pleasure but it MAY be the thing to no longer drive him away. A woman who comes to us on PH or anywhere else online is asking what can she do. So we tell her some things that she can do. While her husband was a butt to stray, she also may be a contributing factor because of her lack of respect, love and honor to her husband and it's important for her to see if she had any role in her husband's sin. She may not have, but it's always important I think to see what the big picture is.

Honestly, our role as Titus 2 women online is severely limited. We're not only hearing only one side of the story but it might not even be the truth. That is why I feel that each woman having marriage problems should go to their own pastor or Christian counselor for advice and guidance. They SEE the woman and can possibly also speak to the husband. In addition, a person in real life can give additional assistance that we just can not do. A woman is being beaten by her husband and all we can do is give her some advice as to what to do. A pastor can get her to a safe home and speak to the police. He can financially assist her if she were to need it also.

For some specifics: A woman is being abused - she should leave to a safe place, pray and try to get counsel. Abusive husbands range from those who can try to change to those who would need a heart and emotional transplant in order to be able to change. But again, that's where a local pastor comes in. I would never say that an abused woman should stay in an unsafe situation - ever.

A woman is being neglected - that's different, IMO. While it is often a very difficult situation and one that I would be heartbroken if my friends were in it, I still could not counsel them to leave their husbands. It's going to be a tough road but it's one that they chose and God will provide for them what they need - even if it's not great love from their husbands and romance.

A woman's husband strayed - she would need lots of local counsel. Is the marriage saveable? Is it not? I've seen my pastor counsel either way because it's not a "one size fits all" kind of thing. One woman had a husband that literally slept with anything that had a heartbeat - men, women, children and we suspected animals. He was so depraved that after seeing his computer (the wife copied the hard drive and took it to the pastor), he looked at her and told her "Get a good lawyer." She not only had full Biblical reason to leave her husband, but she also had physical safety reasons to leave (possible HIV and other diseases AND he was beginning to show a lot of interest in their 12 year old son - wanting to take him out at night with him). But I also know another couple where the husband strayed, she confronted him with his sin and he, after denying it and being confronted by both the wife and pastor, repented and has been working hard at being accountable and saving his marriage.

So bottom line, the Bible says what it says. We can divorce for adultery but it is not an order but a possibility. In other cases, it's got to be taken care of by a local counselor who can see the whole story and help with what they can. All we can do is know the Scriptures and answer according to what we know.

All I'll say about annulment is that I don't believe that the Catholic church is correct in what they do with this. I have a good friend going through a divorce/annulment and what I've heard from her makes me very surprised as to what's going on in the church. I'm not going to go into details but since annulment is not Biblical, I don't see the practice being valid.

[teakettle]

Honestly, our role as Titus 2 women online is severely limited. We're not only hearing only one side of the story but it might not even be the truth. That is why I feel that each woman having marriage problems should go to their own pastor or Christian counselor for advice and guidance. They SEE the woman and can possibly also speak to the husband. In addition, a person in real life can give additional assistance that we just can not do. A woman is being beaten by her husband and all we can do is give her some advice as to what to do. A pastor can get her to a safe home and speak to the police. He can financially assist her if she were to need it also.


i agree 100% with this....as a retired critical care/trauma nurse i can't tell you the number of women i saw over my 15 years of working, that came in with injuries received at the hands of their husbands....it was our job to address and care for their injuries and offer to them the availability of a battered woman's shelter, a close relative or religious leader of their affiliation...more often than not they turned it down. why? because they didn't trust the shelter or feared that when they left the shelter to go home the consequences would be severe, and quite often their family had gotten frustrated with the wife "allowing" the abuse to occur again and again and had been forced to turn their backs.....why had they not gone to their pastor or other religious leader? it never made sense to me as i have always seen the union of marriage as one of God's laws. i found that most had never approached their pastor, because they didn't want to make their husband look bad in the eyes of their church....but God is the only one who can intervene in this situation and a pastor or priest has the resources to bring results that will take into account the needs of each spouse until the real counseling can begin. recovery from a emotionally fractured marriage can and will happen but only through strong prayer by both spouses and God's intervention.
unfortunately we tend to be a "feel good in the moment" society which prevents us from stopping and evaluating our reasoning for makeing major life decisions....if i don't like it i can leave. i see many friends and family go into marriage with less commitment than they give to the luxury car that sits in their driveway...and when things get rough they either run to divorce court, the internet, or an emotional battle that only escalates....but if they had just gone to their pastor when the feelings began, they could have avoided the sorry outcome of divorce.
i do not condone abuse in any way but i do feel that it has become a huge grey area...i am not speaking of abuse against a child as that has it's own sins......but against a wife. there are women who use the cry of abuse to get the upper hand in the court system....and this is worng....unfotunatly the 5 women who lie about abuse make it harder for the 1 who is really being abused.
i would advise any friend or family member to go to their affiliated church and speak to their pastor,first and formost, and then i would pray and leave it in the hands of the only one who can intervene....God. i personally believe that divorce is morally and spiritually wrong.
this is my opinion and invites no disrespect :)

[ThursdaysChild]

Malachi 2: 16 (Amplified Bible)-

16For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment [his wife] with violence. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit [that it may be controlled by My Spirit], that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly [with your marriage mate].


Unfaithful

Adjective

1. Not true to duty or obligation or promises; "an unfaithful lover".
2. Having sexual relations with someone other than your husband or wife, or your boyfriend or girlfriend; "her husband was unfaithful".
3. Deliberately and abominably disloyal or likely to betray trust or confidence; "the faithless Benedict Arnold"; "a lying traitorous insurrectionist".
4. Not trustworthy; "an unfaithful reproduction".


Faithlessly

Adverb

1. In a disloyal and faithless manner; "he behaved treacherously"; "his wife played him false".

Today we see divorce as what ends the marriage. But God hates anything that ends the marriage, even if there's no legal paperwork involved. When a man deals treacherously and faithlessly with his wife, he has worked to end the marriage, whether divorce follows or not. He has worked to make her heart grow cold towards him, as well it should, for he has broken it.

If God has specifically told us,

29Let no foul or polluting language, nor evil word nor unwholesome or worthless talk [ever] come out of your mouth, but only such [speech] as is good and beneficial to the spiritual progress of others, as is fitting to the need and the occasion, that it may be a blessing and give grace (God's favor) to those who hear it. Ephesians 4:29 (Amplified)

and

31Let all bitterness and indignation and wrath (passion, rage, bad temper) and resentment (anger, animosity) and quarreling (brawling, clamor, contention) and slander (evil-speaking, abusive or blasphemous language) be banished from you, with all malice (spite, ill will, or baseness of any kind). Ephesians 4:31 (Amplified)

and

1THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father].

and

21Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

then that means that no one has the right to behave in an abusive manner toward another brother or sister in Christ. That does NOT exclude wives. Wives are to be held above everyone else, except Christ, in love and respect. Any man who does not do so is sinning.

25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

28Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.

29For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30Because we are members (parts) of His body.

A man's wife is a gift from God. When he abuses her or in anyway mistreats her, he's rejecting God. He is breaking God's commands to him. He's the one who's broken up the marriage, not her.

Abusive men rarely, if ever, change. If they do change, it is usually to escalate the violence. If a woman leaves her husband and does not break legal ties with him, she is often in danger. He is the one sinning because he is the one who has proven himself to be faithless and treacherous. He is the one who has chosen to end the marriage.

[Mammamel]

Matthew 5: 7You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.

28But I say to you that everyone who so much as looks at a woman with evil desire for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

29If your right eye serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be cast into hell (Gehenna).

30And if your right hand serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your entire body should be cast into hell (Gehenna).

31It has also been said, Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.

32But I tell you, Whoever dismisses and repudiates and divorces his wife, except on the grounds of unfaithfulness (sexual immorality), causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who has been divorced commits adultery.

Matthew 19:3 And Pharisees came to Him and put Him to the test by asking, Is it lawful and right to dismiss and repudiate and divorce one's wife for any and every cause?

4He replied, Have you never read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female,

5And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh

6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let not man put asunder (separate).

7They said to Him, Why then did Moses command [us] to give a certificate of divorce and thus to dismiss and repudiate a wife

8He said to them, Because of the hardness (stubbornness and perversity) of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been so [ordained].

9I say to you: whoever dismisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10:2And some Pharisees came up, and, in order to test Him and try to find a weakness in Him, asked, Is it lawful for a man to dismiss and repudiate and divorce his wife?
3He answered them, What did Moses command you?
4They replied, Moses allowed a man to write a bill of divorce and to put her away.
5But Jesus said to them, Because of your hardness of heart [your condition of insensibility to the call of God] he wrote you this precept in your Law.
6But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.
7For this reason a man shall leave [behind] his father and his mother and be joined to his wife and cleave closely to her permanently,
8And the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh
9What therefore God has united (joined together), let not man separate or divide.
10And indoors the disciples questioned Him again about this subject
11And He said to them, Whoever dismisses (repudiates and divorces) his wife and marries another commits adultery against her;
12And if a woman dismisses (repudiates and divorces) her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.

Luke 16: 14Now the Pharisees, who were covetous and lovers of money, heard all these things [taken together], and they began to sneer at and ridicule and scoff at Him.

15But He said to them, You are the ones who declare yourselves just and upright before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted and highly thought of among men is detestable and abhorrent (an abomination) in the sight of God. [I Sam. 16:7; Prov. 21:2.]

16Until John came, there were the Law and the Prophets; since then the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone strives violently to go in [would force his own way rather than God's way into it].

17Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to fail and become void.

18Whoever divorces (dismisses and repudiates) his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.


1 Corinthians 7:10But to the married people I give charge--not I but the Lord--that the wife is not to separate from her husband.

11But if she does [separate from and divorce him], let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband. And [I charge] the husband [also] that he should not put away or divorce his wife.

12To the rest I declare--I, not the Lord [for Jesus did not discuss this]--that if any brother has a wife who does not believe [in Christ] and she consents to live with him, he should not leave or divorce her.

13And if any woman has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her, she should not leave or divorce him.

14For the unbelieving husband is set apart (separated, withdrawn from heathen contamination, and affiliated with the Christian people) by union with his consecrated (set-apart) wife, and the unbelieving wife is set apart and separated through union with her consecrated husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean (unblessed heathen, outside the Christian covenant), but as it is they are prepared for God [pure and clean].

15But if the unbelieving partner [actually] leaves, let him do so; in such [cases the remaining] brother or sister is not morally bound. But God has called us to peace.






Those are Christ words, and Paul confirming Christ's words. I refuse to argue with my Lord.

[Mamame]

Malachi 2: 16 (Amplified Bible)-

16For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment [his wife] with violence. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit [that it may be controlled by My Spirit], that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly [with your marriage mate].

Unfaithful

Adjective

1. Not true to duty or obligation or promises; "an unfaithful lover".
2. Having sexual relations with someone other than your husband or wife, or your boyfriend or girlfriend; "her husband was unfaithful".
3. Deliberately and abominably disloyal or likely to betray trust or confidence; "the faithless Benedict Arnold"; "a lying traitorous insurrectionist".
4. Not trustworthy; "an unfaithful reproduction".

Faithlessly

Adverb

1. In a disloyal and faithless manner; "he behaved treacherously"; "his wife played him false".


Today we see divorce as what ends the marriage. But God hates anything that ends the marriage, even if there's no legal paperwork involved. When a man deals treacherously and faithlessly with his wife, he has worked to end the marriage, whether divorce follows or not. He has worked to make her heart grow cold towards him, as well it should, for he has broken it.

If God has specifically told us,

29Let no foul or polluting language, nor evil word nor unwholesome or worthless talk [ever] come out of your mouth, but only such [speech] as is good and beneficial to the spiritual progress of others, as is fitting to the need and the occasion, that it may be a blessing and give grace (God's favor) to those who hear it.

Ephesians 4:29 (Amplified)

and

31Let all bitterness and indignation and wrath (passion, rage, bad temper) and resentment (anger, animosity) and quarreling (brawling, clamor, contention) and slander (evil-speaking, abusive or blasphemous language) be banished from you, with all malice (spite, ill will, or baseness of any kind).

Ephesians 4:31 (Amplified)

and

1THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father].

and

21Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).


then that means that no one has the right to behave in an abusive manner toward another brother or sister in Christ. That does NOT exclude wives. Wives are to be held above everyone else, except Christ, in love and respect. Any man who does not do so is sinning.

25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

28Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.

29For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30Because we are members (parts) of His body.



A man's wife is a gift from God. When he abuses her or in anyway mistreats her, he's rejecting God. He is breaking God's commands to him. He's the one who's broken up the marriage, not her.

Abusive men rarely, if ever, change. If they do change, it is usually to escalate the violence. If a woman leaves her husband and does not break legal ties with him, she is often in danger. He is the one sinning because he is the one who has proven himself to be faithless and treacherous. He is the one who has chosen to end the marriage.

While this all seems like a nice idea, Scripture is clear. The ONLY reason for divorce is fornication. According to Strongs, fornication is a Greek word "porneia" which is basically any kind of sexual immorality from adultery to homosexuality and bestiality. It is not abuse, unkindness, selfishness, workaholicness (LOL), or neglect.

The passage from Malachi is speaking of Judah's unfaithfulness - the fact that the Israelites left their own Jewish wives to marry foreign women - when God SPECIFICALLY said not to do that. When we look at the verse in context we read:

10Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11Judah has been faithless, and abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem. For Judah has profaned the sanctuary of the LORD, which he loves, and has married the daughter of a foreign god. 12May the LORD cut off from the tents of Jacob any descendant of the man who does this, who brings an offering to the LORD of hosts! 13And this second thing you do. You cover the LORD’s altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 But you say, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. 16"For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless."


Yes - a man is to be kind to his wife. He is to treat her as the weaker vessel and he's to love her as he loves his own body and to love her as Christ loves the church. However, his disobedience in these commands, while sinful, are not reasons to divorce even if it's hard on the wife. God does not give us an out for that. He has damaged the marriage - he has not ended it.

A woman who's being abused needs to get counsel and protection from those around her. But because her husband hit her doesn't mean that in God's eyes the marriage is void. That is not Scriptural.

[Janingeorgia]

Wow! I must say that this is the only place on the web where I have found a civil discourse on a controversial topic. Of course, not everyone will agree about everything, but I haven't seen disprespect, flaming, etc. in this thread.

I am also Bible-literal. As women, we have some tough decisions to make in our lives and who, if, and when to marry are among them. These decisions can affect the rest of our lives, either for good or for bad.

I appreciate the open discussion and reliance on scripture in making points. Personally, I wouldn't stay in a physically abusive relationship, but I knew when I got married that divorce for any other reason but adultery meant no remarriage, ever. But, for me, if the situation was that bad, then I don't think I would take the chance that I might choose wrong again, anyway!