Some thinkin'

[Mammamel]

I been thinking on the statement made that this is no longer a Christian nation. I admit that statement bothers me more than I care for it to.

This nation IS a Christian nation. It was created to be one, and only its creators can change its purpose.

We have citizens who are not Christians, so what? PH has members who are non Christian, it does not change the fact that PH was built by Christians for Christians.

Finally some one in Washington has been man enough to say what needs saying. May all God's followers develop the man stuff needed to stand tall and say AMEN!

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o)

[sommrluv]

I didn't watch the video yet, I have to go start dinner and I'm not sure how long it is. Who is it?

But the majority of our nations leaders weren't Christian. They came to the new world to develop a nation of religious freedoms, not a nation of one religion.

I think what bothers me is we're entering a land of religious voidism. Where God, any God, isn't allowed to be spoken, to exist, and because Christianity has become so vile to some, I was schooled in a district where I learned all about Islam, I sang Hebrew songs at the 'holiday' concert, and we gave a festival of equality were we celebrated an African religious festival and danced a traditional latino dance, but I was sent to the principals office for wearing a Christian T-shirt.

THIS to me, is the result of forcing the nation to be a Christian nation, where it wasn't intended to be for only one religion in Man's eyes.

I read a report this week that a woman who was a parent of a kindergartner was invited, along with other parents, to a "celebrate my child" day. They were asked to read from child's favorite book, bring items from the home, etc, and were given an allotted time. Several parents complained about the woman reading from the Bible multiple verses, and giving an all religion based presentation. Her appeal to the state court was thrown out when a baby sitter (some stories mentioned christian, others didn't) was forced to testity that the child's favorite book that year was not the Bible, but Brown Bear, Black Bear, and items were not his.

I believe we need to take opportunities to present the word whenever possible. I also believe we need to be above reproach to all means neccessary, because Satan will attack, and God will prune. Lying for a good reason is still a lie. There are many ways to get Christ into a conversation. Holding people against their will isn't one of them. Unfortunately, that is how the majority of the country feels...that we will make them Christians by any means neccessary.

I'm not saying that this couldn't be a Christian nation, anything is possible with Christ. But the leaders who conceived the creation of our, relatively young, nation, never believed it would be created for any one religion.

Sadly, the link to newest headlines at the bottom of the excerpt spelled out exactly where our world was heading, more than anything to me. "Officers suspended with pay for flushing fetus down toilet."

They say the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Let's hope so. Our arms are broken.

[sommrluv]

Halfway down the stairs...I'll have to make a point to watch this, but What about the Treaty of Tripoli?

[Mamame]

This nation was formed as a nation to house those who wish to worship God (not Allah, not Buddah) freely without government interferance. If you notice every one of our government documents were written with God in the text. Yes, this nation was founded on Judeo-Chrisitan values and now we have a government that is not just moving away from that but running away from that. However, every...other...god...is wonderful and needs to be embraced and tolerated. Sorry - tradition is nice but God is God and He was the focus of the founding fathers..

[teakettle]

wow Mel....that was a powerful video.....thanks for sharing :)

Mamame....amen :D

[gerrie]

As for me and my household, we will follow Jesus Christ.

Okay---I can't really speak for the rest of my household but I AM a Christian, I am a follower and seeker after my Lord and Savior Jesus. The rest of the nation can claim to be under who ever they want, but I am under God, and staying there, thank you very much. Blessing all, Gerrie

[grace]

Amen, Gerrie!

[Mammamel]

Here is why, it finally dawned on me, this is so important for us today.

This journey began slowly. Non Christians did not want us to pray in school, we, well my parents this happened while I was a child, said nothing, and let it go. Then it got to be where a child could not have their Bible out in class, even in study hall. Now, the Bible was one of the first books used to teach reading in America, yes in our first public schools, Bibles were regularly used as a teaching tools. Now you can be detained and reprimanded for "offending" some one for reading it. You can not even wear a Jesus saves tee in many areas. (My son took on his principal over that issue, and won using the US Constitution, I now carry one with me at all times)

I am tired of not using my God given voice and my law given rights to stand up for what I believe in. I am tired of the old refrain, follow our leaders. We have the right to disagree and make our points known. I read an article just yesterday where a Russian journalist counted us as a lost cause as a country, and called us "sheeple". There was a time when such a thing would cause our blood to run hot.

So now we come to today, if you want to watch Tv you have to put up with soft porn ads and curses. Want t read a magazine? Fine, it is financed by ads of scantily clad women or alcohol or drugs. There are very few that have no bothersome ads in them anymore. Need help with a scholarship? Prance around on stage in a bikini and call it a beauty pageant. What on earth does how a girl looks in her underwear have to do with whether or not she has brains?

So now, I REFUSE to stand quietly by while they try to take my country away too. I am a Christian first and always, but I am also an American, and proud of the fact that with God WE as a country stood against evil and saved this world, not once but many times from those who would destroy people of God and wipe His name from the earth.
I was proud when my son took his oath to serve "God, Country and Corp".

God's name is on all of our important documents, buildings, and monuments. No matter what anyone says, this country is HIS. All we have to do is say so.

I hear a lot now days about the Lamb of God who was meek and mild and accepting, what about the MAN of God who drove out evil from the temple? There is a time for both, now is the time for strength and determination to not let others destroy what God helped us to build.

It was not buddha, or allah or any other supposed diety who built this country, it was men and women of Faith. Faith in the 1 true God, who sent His son so that ALL might have a chance to be saved. That is our foundation, that is our strength. We can choose to be strong in God or feeble with out. I choose strength. It is nice to see at last 1 guy in Washington who gets it and is not afraid to say so.

[Calico Prairie]

You make some good points, Mel. I have found myself becoming more and more apathetic about these things simply because the Bible predicts that the world is going the direction it is, and there's no real way to hold back that evil. However, I do see the point in holding out hope despite the evil that presses in on our country. Thanks for sharing. :)

[maggie]

I didn't watch the video yet, I have to go start dinner and I'm not sure how long it is. Who is it?

But the majority of our nations leaders weren't Christian. They came to the new world to develop a nation of religious freedoms, not a nation of one religion.

I think what bothers me is we're entering a land of religious voidism. Where God, any God, isn't allowed to be spoken, to exist, and because Christianity has become so vile to some, I was schooled in a district where I learned all about Islam, I sang Hebrew songs at the 'holiday' concert, and we gave a festival of equality were we celebrated an African religious festival and danced a traditional latino dance, but I was sent to the principals office for wearing a Christian T-shirt.

THIS to me, is the result of forcing the nation to be a Christian nation, where it wasn't intended to be for only one religion in Man's eyes.

I read a report this week that a woman who was a parent of a kindergartner was invited, along with other parents, to a "celebrate my child" day. They were asked to read from child's favorite book, bring items from the home, etc, and were given an allotted time. Several parents complained about the woman reading from the Bible multiple verses, and giving an all religion based presentation. Her appeal to the state court was thrown out when a baby sitter (some stories mentioned christian, others didn't) was forced to testity that the child's favorite book that year was not the Bible, but Brown Bear, Black Bear, and items were not his.

I believe we need to take opportunities to present the word whenever possible. I also believe we need to be above reproach to all means neccessary, because Satan will attack, and God will prune. Lying for a good reason is still a lie. There are many ways to get Christ into a conversation. Holding people against their will isn't one of them. Unfortunately, that is how the majority of the country feels...that we will make them Christians by any means neccessary.

I'm not saying that this couldn't be a Christian nation, anything is possible with Christ. But the leaders who conceived the creation of our, relatively young, nation, never believed it would be created for any one religion.

Sadly, the link to newest headlines at the bottom of the excerpt spelled out exactly where our world was heading, more than anything to me. "Officers suspended with pay for flushing fetus down toilet."

They say the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Let's hope so. Our arms are broken.

Summer,

Watch the video.

You are of the generation which has been mis-taught. The people who founded this country were indeed of a Judeo-Christian background. They might not be recognizable as today's Evangelicals, but they weren't a hodge podge of religious soup. They believed in the God of the Bible.

I say this with all respect, as a teacher of many years, and as one who has studied educational systems.

[Mammamel]

Kristi, I think you speak of end times yes?
Well think of this, end times were predicted when Nero took power (the 666 is the numerical equivalent to Nero if I remember my Bible history lessons)

So Nero was an end time, and yet God's people stayed His hand. Ghengis Khan, qualifies as an end time. Hilter definitely qualifies as an end time. Any regime who declares war on God, is an end time. They fit the mold John set up in Revelation. Sodom and Gomorrah were an old testament end time, yet God would have stayed His hand then, as He did for Nineveh, had there been any of His people there calling on Him for help. (remember God found not even 10 people who trusted Him. Jonah however was able to get the people of Nineveh to call on God and ask His help)

So yes, we may be in an end time, but as with those of past history if WE stand together for God, call out to Him for guidance and ask His help in reclaiming our nation, He will stay His hand again. Our strength comes from our Faith in God. Also remember, Christianity is not a religion, it is a Faith.

[Calico Prairie]

Kristi, I think you speak of end times yes?
Well think of this, end times were predicted when Nero took power (the 666 is the numerical equivalent to Nero if I remember my Bible history lessons)

So Nero was an end time, and yet God's people stayed His hand. Ghengis Khan, qualifies as an end time. Hilter definitely qualifies as an end time. Any regime who declares war on God, is an end time. They fit the mold John set up in Revelation. Sodom and Gomorrah were an old testament end time, yet God would have stayed His hand then, as He did for Nineveh, had there been any of His people there calling on Him for help. (remember God found not even 10 people who trusted Him. Jonah however was able to get the people of Nineveh to call on God and ask His help)

So yes, we may be in an end time, but as with those of past history if WE stand together for God, call out to Him for guidance and ask His help in reclaiming our nation, He will stay His hand again. Our strength comes from our Faith in God. Also remember, Christianity is not a religion, it is a Faith.

So are you saying that it was God's people that stayed His hand when it really should have been the end times? I have never heard this teaching before. Have you got more information on this particular teaching? I have always been taught that no man knows the day or the hour, which still fits with what you are saying (if the end times timeframe has been changing over and over)....however, I had always been taught that there was actually a specific time that the end times will happen.

Anyway, I probably need to open another thread in regards to end times so as not to hijack this one. :)

[sommrluv]

I did watch the video. I had caught that a few days ago, or maybe longer. I think I was watching cspan at the time. :)

I'll have to post on this later, after the weekend, But I know we've all discussed this in a previous thread, and I'll still have to continue to respectfully disagree. I've volunteered for the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, and living in this area...you're drowned in American history.

The main issue we're debating is whether or not the Founding Fathers meant for this country to be one specifically built on Christianity alone...and the answer is no. They were escaping a mono-religious government. Not all of them were Christian, let alone religous at all. Jefferson wrote his own version of a bible. A good many of them were Deists. Washington valued the Mason's Guild much higher than his religion.

I'm not saying a fully Christian Nation it wouldn't be a wonderful thing. But I'm saying forcing this issue, and teaching our children untruthful things, is why people label us religious right and why we are in the political mess we're in right now.

Now, saying that our nation is founded upon Christian principles, I would agree on. It's akin to saying we have moral values. No one would argue with that.

There are many sources I want to site here, I only have time for one:

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

(Sent to the senate floor and read aloud June 7, 1797, and unanimously approved)

John Adams was president at the time this writing was brought before Congress. He did not believe in the Trinity, nor the divinity of Jesus. He also belived Church going was good for society as a whole, no matter what religious group they chose to affliate themselves with. His father wanted him to be a minister, and he decided law was a more "noble" calling.

[Mammamel]

Kristi,
What I am saying is every time something negative happens (some form of persecution) Christians begin thinking end times. Only God knows when the ends times will be. However, just like when the people of Nineveh repented, God moved their destruction (end time) back.

In my study of history we seem to have phases, people in general wane in their devotion to God, things get bad, we begin a phase of revival, and reclaim God's place as supreme ruler, and things get better.
Eventually this will change. However, to be clear on this, i was taught Revelation was not a specific END TIME prophecy but a warning to the roman Christians of Nero and what he would do to them. Since history repeats, this scenario gets played out over and over.
As Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun. So these events are not different than what has gone before, and they will at some point repeat again.
What bothers me is, if unchecked, while the world may not end, America may go the way of Rome.

[Calico Prairie]

Right. I'm a little concerned about what America's role will be in end times simply because it basically earns a non-mention in end times prophecy.

But yeah--I see what you are saying now, thank you for clarifying.

Getting back to what I was saying about my own heart, I've been apathetic to some degree about fighting for what is right. I'm going to be praying for revival in my heart.

[Mammamel]

A further thought,
Over and over again God told Israel if they would obey Him, He would protect them. Yet time after time they failed.
In the New Testament the apostles tell us God created for himself a new people, Christians. He did this because Israel kept refusing His ways. Ultimately He choose a different method to bring people to Him. The same promise He gave the Israelites applies to us. If we follow Him he will be to us a God.
Just as He said in EX 6, Lev 26.
Deuteronomy says: Deu 28:15 "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. "

This is played out over and over in the Bible, and in history after the Bible.

Christians need to stand against the evil now, just as God's people must always. We can not decide, well the end will come anyway so what's the point? We must choose God over the easy path. Even if this is THE END TIME many religions teach and expect.

That is why it is imperative that America not give up her place as a Christian nation. We were built as a Christian strong hold and so we need to remain.

[sommrluv]

I'm such a board addict.

We just finished a movie, so I'll post before I sleep..

I agree on Phases and a possible repeat of Rome...the Phases are as followed, this is fairly agreed upon by all historians. I'm sure you can see where American has been and is today.

The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage.

I don't agree with Revelations not being a literal translation of end times and the return of Christ. Many times the Bible references itself as literal and not metaphorical, as do many of the best Bible Scholars. I tend to agree with them.

We just moved through Revelations and my Pastor referenced the fall of the Roman empire as well, it's a hot topic in many discussions nowadays. We all agreed it's not so much that the whole of the American people would be wiped out, but that possibly America wouldn't be a Nation of the standing it is today.

[sommrluv]

Nothing in this video really showed me any "proof" that our founding fathers meant this to be a Christian Nation, rather than one sharing Christian principles and freedom of religion. Can anyone give some examples?

[gerrie]

Help me out here ladies, please. I am looking for a verse in the old testament that says something like-----if my people will call out to me, turn from their evil and return to righteousness I will heal their nations. Does anyone know where this precept is??? Thanks, Gerrie

[Laurie]

Gerrie,

I think you are looking for 2 Chronicles 7:14 - "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land,"

[teakettle]

maggie......very well put

[teakettle]

Sorry to double post....but sommrluv, your question stuck in my craw....I am going to repost my comment from the other founding father's thread....I must admit I don't think you ask to be "enlightened" as much as you do to further debate and reiterate your point....but here goes.

Nothing in this video really showed me any "proof" that our founding fathers meant this to be a Christian Nation, rather than one sharing Christian principles and freedom of religion. Can anyone give some examples?

I would caution against labeling with terms, as I realize that many articles can be found with these terms about the founding fathers, they were made for no other reason than a "catch all"......there is a strong sense of Faith in all of the documents, perhaps not the word God....but terms suh as "Supreme Justice", "Giver of Life" and so on.

We have been blessed by God to live in such a wonderful country. When America is at its worst, she is still far above all the other nations of the world. Many times I lament at what has happened to us as a country. In the past 50 years we have seen huge increases in violent crimes, drug use, teenage pregnancy, and divorce. We have also seen God taken out of our schools, our courtrooms, and our workplaces. In 1973 it became legal to murder an unborn baby out of convenience for the mom, and to protect her "rights" without any discussion of the babies' rights. The sins of our nation rise as high as the heavens. Pornography, adultery, and homosexuality have become accepted ways to express our God-given sensual desires. Rape, murder, and rage have filled our streets, and our schools. We have left the standard. We have chosen our own path. Yet in spite of all this I am still very proud to call myself an American. America has the greatest resources on planet earth for helping those in need. We are feeding starving families in Africa, Asia, and elsewhere. We free those who were once captives. We promote democracy, freedom, and peace. We restrain the use of our might by seeking not to conquer peoples, but to liberate them, help them, and support them. We have befriended Israel as she stands against a wall of opposition. We have sacrificed our own sons and daughters so that the world can know peace, prosperity, and happiness. Our Founders were led by God Almighty to accomplish the establishment of a nation unlike none ever seen before, and likely never to be seen again. In a few short years, young America stunned the world with her productivity, education, and technology, and she continues to lead the world in industry, education, technology, and prosperity. I love Jesus for not only dying for me, but for moving in the hearts of men and women, Christian men and women, to establish this nation that I live in today. Despite all our sins, there is still hope. Our God is slow to anger and is abounding in love and faithfulness. If we will but seek Him, we can be greater than we are today.

that is MHO...and I am done discussing this issue...my patience wears thin as I get older.

[gerrie]

Thank you Laurie, that is indeed the verse I was looking for. While the whole verse is important I find at a lot of people seem to gloss over the part that says to 'turn from'. And to me that is a very important thing. I can sin and ask forgiveness all day but if I don't try [not always succeeding ] but at least try, then my 'repentance' isn't real.
And I think that is where America is as a country, we publicly ask for God's blessing but we as a people do not truely repent.

[missy37]

Our forefathers were not asking us to have one religion,
but to recognize God's hand in our nation. And if we as
a people deny God's holy place in our nation, it will indeed
fall. God will have a repentant people in his chosen land.
America was chosen by Him to be a nation where though
all are certainly welcomed, our laws are Bible based and
need to be thus respected and upheld.

[Mammamel]

Our forefathers were not asking us to have one religion,
but to recognize God's hand in our nation. And if we as
a people deny God's holy place in our nation, it will indeed
fall. God will have a repentant people in his chosen land.
America was chosen by Him to be a nation where though
all are certainly welcomed, our laws are Bible based and
need to be thus respected and upheld.


Very well put!